Engine Masters

Actually, doing well wasn't even a consideration by any of us. Simply the fact that a non dyno tuned, freshly assembled engine from "subsets" by different people is viable and could be done. Accomplished in a way it will perform decent at all, was the talked about goal.  

Just try to make all the torque you can by 4800 and the top end will take care of itself. Maybe a small cam with a daul plan intake would be a good start.  

What's the latest on 2009 EMC rules.

           Joe C  

Can someone fill me in on the rules as well

Eric W.  

I have to question the wisdom of certain cost controls in the Engine Masters challenge.

My first big gripe is Carburetors.  How much do people spend on them?  The winners spend lots.  You need to try one year with EFI allowed or have an EFI class.  A good megasquirt system is probably not much more expensive than one race carb and the tuning should make nearly as much power (or possibly more) with an added safety level for these engines that are being run hard near the ragged edge of detonation.

Second, stroker combinations and after market blocks.  Who builds a 400M?  No one that I know.  Clevelands are a dying breed also.  But it's easy to make a 400+ cube Clevor.

If you are going to try to make good power, you need to use the best parts, not crutch along inferior parts as a cost control or in the name of being fair.  Using inferior parts is a good way to turn an expensive engine in to a door stop.  We don't need to hear about another 500 hp 302 Ford that cracks it's stock block when we could hear about a 500 hp 302 Ford built on a Boss block that is essentially bullet proof.  The extra money is good insurance for the rest of the parts in the engine.  This isn't a poor man's game, but blown engines will make you poor quick.

And how about the valve train?  These engines are running very steep ramps and turning ~high rpm.  Rules prohibiting good rocker arms are just inviting some piston-valve contact and another blown engine.  Perhaps you could limit valve lift and open pressure of the valve springs but otherwise, let people do what they need to do, including roller cams.

The result of bad rules are engines that no one in their right mind would build for the street and the fuel restrictions and rpm range make them engines that no one would build for a race.

The thing I like about Engine Masters is that I can see race techniques applied to ~street style engines and that is exactly what I want in my car.  But I will have a fuel injected stroker in the best block I can buy and a valve train that is designed to rev high and last at the same time.  It won't be cheap.

Now, back to carbs, some people will say that allowing EFI will be unfair for people that aren't good with computers.  They are absolutely right, but what about the people who aren't good with carbs?  It's time to join the 21'st century.  If your carb can't compete with my EFI, get yourself some EFI.  That is the way everything else works.  If your carb can kick my EFI's ass, good for you.

I would love to pull the trigger and enter the contest if only I could build the type of engine that I want to put in my car.  As it is I'm just watching from the bleachers and paying attention to how and why people are winning.  I like the way you allowed engines with different displacement to compete against each other this year but with all the inexpensive, high quality stroker kits, mandating ~stock displacement just isn't realistic for a maximum effort street engine.

2004 VEMC top 20 winner  

the winner seemed to crutch along just fine with a stock block. where in the rules does it say good rocker arms are prohibited? i ran T&D shaft system on mine. i think there were plenty of engines this year that could be duplicated and run on the street..look at the top six and you'll see a 302 chev in there, there was a 700+ hp buick that placed well...i think that would be considered a max effort street engine.  the scores this year were way higher than previous years&some of those years were unlimited comp&roller cams etc.  by the way, what was you score? top 20 winner? i thought there was only one winner.  

Yes, the stock blocks did OK but how many of them used block filler?  How many of them had extensive oil system modifications?  The fact that they work for a few dyno runs doesn't make them the best option or even less expensive than a good race block.

I'll ask again, who builds a 400M?  As far as I can tell it's just EMC contestants and stock rebuilds (but those are probably pretty rare).  Do you think people are going to rush and buy up 400M cores to build up?  Just look at all of the hacks that had to be done to build it.  With apologies to Kaase, the crank, rods and pistons had work done that you just don't do unless you have to.  The shear forces on his wristpins are just scary.

As for the rocker arms, look at the stands that Kaase had to machine to use good rockers.  I'm sure he would do that real cheap for a customer (that's sarcasm by the way).  And 2.2-1 ratio?  Just look at the teardown pictures, his cam almost had the lobes wiped off.  That's not ready for the street.  That's just a case of throwing every trick in the book (and a lot of money/time) at a problem (the rules).

Oh, and another thing, the 10.5-1 CR cap is pretty bogus.  I am still waiting to read the whole story but I doubt any one broke because of detonation.  The scores were higher this year because the scoring system was different but with the cams they were running, they left power on the table because of a lack of compression.

2004 VEMC top 20 winner

About VEMC, my $200 prize check cashed so I do count myself as a winner.  I did not have knowledge of the preliminary dyno run scores like the first place winner did, I did not rely on luck, I made an educated guess based on the information at hand and it was good enough to win $200.00 and the details of my simulation were damn close to the actual winning engine.  Kaase just used a hair more cam and compression than I thought he could get away with and a <3% margin of error isn't that bad.  

when is the next engine masters challenge? what are the rules?  can I enroll in the contest? let me know and if I can find the time I would be more than happy to join.  

So Randy, with that gang let me guess...You'll use a Ford 302 block, Cleveland heads, a buick external oil pump, a mopar crank and Boss 429 valve covers???  

i think an idle of say 800rpm with 15" of vacume.
and a max rpm of 6500.
then build 3 different sizes 300cuin, 350cuin, 400cuin.
lets see some real daily driver engine masters chalanges, where decent fuel economy counts.

not all of us can afford two or more cars. i want my cake and i want to eat it too.  

I for one look forward to these builds each year. It's interesting to see what these teams come up with. Kaase's engine ran extremely well for the short period of time it was on the dyno and I would like to see the damage that occurred to the over heated cam lobes. I'm sure PHR will provide full details for us to see. He's an out of the box thinker and that's what I like about him. The short duration on his exhaust lobe, extreme rocker ratio's and very short lobe seperation are just a few things for me to think about. While I would never have the recourses to build such an engine or test it I do appreciate his effort. Oh yea, it would blow in short order as well.

LSXNOVA  

Were the BES second place winner's numbers correct? They seemed very low to me. Could someone post the real number's here for me/us?


LSXNOVA  

I also think they should have a limited amount of time as well as money! all contestants should have between eight to ten hours to prep their parts and assembile the engines. After the engine is assembled then it should be broke in on the dyno with a preliminary pull then the builder should be given a half hour to tweak it. After that the offical results should be recorded! the budget no matter how much, should apply to everyone!  

I think comp cams has a challenge such as the one you are talking about. Maybe you should check into it.

                               Joe C  

TO 10second.racer,  RE: ...when is the next engine masters challenge? what are the rules?...

  It was announced at the EMC kickoff meeting at PRI that the 2009 rules would be posted on the website by January 1, 2009. It is now late Jan 6th, and as far as I can tell:    no rules, just an application blank.
  I have emailed the Source-Interlink honchos several times asking for a link to the rules or some idea of when they will be available.   The resounding silence is deafening.
  Maybe they're planning on making it as difficult to find the rules as it is to find a copy of the current issue of Engine Masters mag.